Pietersen and South Africa

[greg]

Originally Posted by Ernest

Pietersen along with Cook - Panesar - Mahmood - Plunkett and others - it will take a few years before we know if they are even good enough England cricketers, let alone great cricketers.

I agree with that Ernest but you have to admit that KP,Cook and Monty have been as impressive early on as anybody has been at the beginning of their career over the last 20 years for England and Mahmood and Plunkett have shown lots of potential as well.

[John]

It was noticeable listening to Atherton and someone else talking about Pietersen the other night they were relatively uncritical of him. They know class when they see it.
Also I remember some coach who had worked Pietersen and Ponting when they were younger that Pietersen is the most naturally talented batsmen he has seen since he worked with Ponting.

[admin]

John, I can't work out why Pietersen was considered a bowler in those days (actually an all-rounder)? I don't understand why his batting wasn't further developed at that stage

[Ninjaman]

Somebody should tell Pietersen that he left South Africa a good few years ago and started playing in and for England. Thus, he should move on!

I don't know what he is whining for.

It always makes me laugh when people moan about quotas in South African cricket. They always have had them. Just that before the quota was 11 white men.

I've seen South African cricket teams since their introduction to Test cricket and what has struck me as that regulalry over the years a few por to crap white players have always popped up now and then.

I wonder what quota held them back??

As for the issue of affirmative action.

Is it ideal? Of course not.

But is it necessary? Overwhelmingly so.

It has zilch to do with what the Daily Mail artcile admin posted calls political correctness.

That is a phrase used in a discussion that once mentioned immediately sees me losing all interest in continuing.

The minute things were not going his way he left and then attacked measures done to correct decades of REAL injustice as some form of injustice done to him.

The same happens in the Caribbean and Latin America.

Apparently, he was replaced in the Natal team by a guy called Ghulam Bodi.

Someone sent me these figures of what Bodi and Pietersen's career was like at the time.

Pietersen

1st class batting ave 26, bowling ave 36.86
List A batting ave 7.66, bowling ave 59.

Ghulam Bodi

1st class batting ave 33.20, bowling ave 25.86
List A batting ave 28.50, bowling ave 23.22

Make of them what you will

Anyway, he has become the player he is in the UK and good luck to him but he really should give it a rest.

[butchering lee]

CLASS!??


test 1 v SL

65.3Vaas to Pietersen, no run, good length delivery, pitched on middle and leg and shaping back in, Pietersen is beaten comprehensively and the ball hits the pad right in front of the stumps, pleading appeal for lbw turned down by umpire Aleem Dar - that looked out!
he had made 4 'til that point

85.2Maharoof to Pietersen, 1 no ball, Oh! Caught off a no-ball! Short of length outside off and Pietersen drives it on the up and goes to right of short cover where Vandort flings himself to right and takes the 'catch' but.... In fact Pietersen had turned behind and had begun his walk.

had just hit a half century - had done well, but it was a flat-bed, first innings against a SL attack - went on to make 158.

Test 2:

23.2Malinga to Pietersen, FOUR, pitched up delivery, opens the face off the bat, gets the outside edge to thirdman fence.

23.3Malinga to Pietersen, FOUR, fuller delivery, Pietersen pushes forward, gets the outside edge, this time past the second slip to thirdman fence.
had made 0 before the first four (ok these are little more than half-moral victories for the bowler)

....next morning first over gets beaten twice by vaas, third over gets the edge doesn't carry - gets his half century then

39.5Muralitharan to Pietersen, no run, excellent delivery tossed up on the off stump, the doosra, plays down the wrong line, strikes the pad in line with the stumps, that was close thing, loud appeal, not given.
no more score when

43.1Muralitharan to Pietersen, no run, tossed up, Pietersen sweeps and misses, stirkes the pad, loud appeal, turned down
anyway - made 140+


3rd test

14.3Vaas to Pietersen, FOUR, full angled across the right hander who drives firmly, edges, thick edge flies through the vacant 3rd slip area
on 1.

whatever..made 48 in the end.

so if you get him (which is my point) he'd have gone on 4 - rather than 158, and he'd have made 52 rather than 140. 154 + 88 ->take 242 away from his series figures and his ave. drops to 23 ... or more realistically (for those who may question my questioning esp. regarding the 2nd test 140) just take away the 154. still gives him a 41 ave rather than 72.

same against pakistan.

18.6Shahid Nazir to Pietersen, no run, big shouts, wrongly turned down. Hits the seam, nips back in and comes off the inside-edge onto the pad and through to Kamran Akmal. Pietersen got away with that one, as the replays clearly show. Inzimam rubs his beard, he knows Pietersen’s had a let-off.
he was on 2

25.5Danish Kaneria to Pietersen, no run, through the gate, spun past the inside edge. Pietersen had no idea what happened there; well bowled by Kaneria
on 17 (not a missed chance - just no clue)

32.3Danish Kaneria to Pietersen, no run, ooh crikey, another close decision – not quite a shocker, but not far off it – as Kaneria roars an appeal for lbw. Perhaps saved by a big lunge forward
on 20

36.2Shahid Nazir to Pietersen, (no ball) 1 run, gone, caught behind, NO! No ball! Dear oh dear, Shahid overstepping considerably, Pietersen slaps it, gets and inside edge before the umpire, Hair, raises his arm and not his finger. Pakistan not having a lot of luck today
on 29

went on to 135 - not without even more close calls though.

take that 133 out of the series ave and it falls from 49 to 30.



take the chances he gives him early or * !!!

*see above ave's



when he did get going it was impressive indeed - it was a highlight in my annual english summer visits.
please appreciate this post for the time put in - i was at a bit of a loss tonight and what started out as fun quickly got..well...

[admin]

Impressive research BL. Let's face it, you need a bit of luck in this game. A few let-offs: bowler overstepping when taking a wicket, edges not seen or heard by the umpire, dropped catches, LBWs not given when the batsman is well forward, LBWs not given due to concerns about "hight" or hint of going down leg-side or pitched just outside the line. There are a lot of 50-50 decisions given in favour of the batsman. That's why cricket is called a batsman's game. As regards to the "false" shots, even good batsman struggle with very good deliveries and the occasional unplayable one.

If you could do the same reasearch for Bradman or Tendulkar you'd probably find that their averages would not be so good if all the 50-50 decisions went against them. The bottom line is that your research shows that umpires are pretty lenient towards batsmen because they get the benefit of any doubt - unless the umpire is biased of course.

[Lemming]

Every player in the history of the game has given dropped chances and gone on to make more runs. Every player has edged down to third man and had reprieves from the umpire when an LBW call is plumb.

I can appreciate the time and effort put into your research Butchering Lee, but I think it was a pointless exercise. For every piece of luck you quote, I could (I'm not going to though ) give an example of genius from Pietersen. Maybe hitting a respectable delivery for six, maybe stepping out to leg and driving on the up through the covers or maybe hitting Murali for six left-handed.

I wouldn't say Pietersen was a classy batsman at all. His technique is unorthodox, but he backs both himself to the full and his eye and power and it works for him. He's been around for a few years now and is arguably the guy to watch in world cricket. He hasn't got to that position by luck. You can't argue a guy has built the foundations of an briliant international carreer (averaging high 40's in tests and mid-50's in ODIs with over 2,500 international runs to date) with edges through third man, drops and LBW lifelines.

Everyone gives chances, Bradman, Lara, Sobers, Richards. It is illogical to assume that these guys are classless just because you can find examples of edges and chances not taken. Bradman edged a few to third-man and was dropped a fair few times - had all chances been taken, Bradman would average about 60. I think Pietersen has a right to give chances without taking anything away from the fact that he is a very good batsman. Not as good as the guys at the top of this paragraph, among others, but a very good batsman who, I reckon, will most likely go very far in the game.

[butchering lee]

Originally Posted by Lemming

You can't argue a guy has built the foundations of an briliant international carreer (averaging high 40's in tests .. to date) with edges through third man, drops and LBW lifelines.

in fact i did ... and though it was pretty much tongue in cheek it came from two things: 'the cooler' and an interview in which bradman stated he was in control of EVERY ball (i hope i'm wrong with this one) of a double century v england except one - he may have said he knew where he was going to hit every ball...either way the statement surprised me and got me...well, here!

Originally Posted by Lemming

Every player has edged down to third man and had reprieves from the umpire when an LBW call is plumb.

but as often as each other?
i had a look at strauss' first three centuries and didn't find a clear cut chance - a chance which read - dropped / sitter / plumb... my previous examples of KP included some shots which were no more offending than 'streaky' and may therefore have given a false impression of my hunch...

when I say he gives chances, i do not refer to false shots, 50/50 LBWs or near misses – there are so many of those against any batsman it isn't worth the bother (not that this is mind but i was always told "IF YOU DO A JOB, DO IT PROPERLY"

...no,I stick strictly with plumb decisions going his way or dropped catches (even then i stick to sitters) and i stop after the first one i come to so there could be more before he's finally out but they're superfluous.


So chronologically; innings above 50.


KPs debut innings was fantastic (and I mean fantastic, it was chanceless, it was under a lot of pressure and so it was a strong performance all round). Made a thoroughly deserved 57. [1st 50]

2nd innings....40.2 Lee to Pietersen, no run, full toss from Lee, one that got away. Swinging in and bang on the stumps. Pietersen makes as though it is a beamer but that certainly isn't. Struck just above the pads that is plumb in front. Can't see why Koertzen didn't give that!
At this point KP is 16..he made 64. (diff. 40)

1st inn, 2nd test – another good one for KP [2nd 50]

2nd inn, 3rd test:
23.6 Warne to Pietersen, no run, drift, spin, bounce, ripper from Warne, Pietersen edges but the ball hits Gilchrist on the pad and falls short of Hayden at slip
(not a sitter but on 0)

30.4 Lee to Pietersen, no run, Dropped! Full and outside the off, driven hard at, the edge goes straight to Warne who drops this! That is a lucky break for Pietersen.
on 15...made 158. (diff. 143)


v pk 2nd test (in pk)
67.5 Shahid Afridi to Pietersen, one run, tossed up, came down the wicket and driven in the air to mid-off, Kaneria dropped a simple catch!
Was on 64 (made 100)[diff. 34]


... so in the way i'm counting that's his 3rd legit 50 (no 100s yet) and it's his 13th innings – the next 50 is in his 18th innings. Until his 17th innings if you subtract the difference and calculate his ave to this point - it's 29.5 (the actual one is 43).

So...2nd innings, 1st test ind:
47.1 Kumble to Pietersen, no run, Pietersen lunges forward at the ball, meets it just on the bounce and scoops it up to Kumble who accepts what looks like a catch. The umpires refer to the third umpire to see if it was a bump ball and it is ruled not out. That was a lucky break for Pietersen. That didn't look like a bump ball.
On 36..made 87 (diff. 51)

1st inn/2nd test ind. no issues here – close calls galore but no 'no-brainers' – another 50 [4th] to his name = a fine 64 ...and so we return to

test 1 v SL
65.3Vaas to Pietersen, no run, good length delivery, pitched on middle and leg and shaping back in, Pietersen is beaten comprehensively and the ball hits the pad right in front of the stumps, pleading appeal for lbw turned down by umpire Aleem Dar - that looked out!
On 4 made 158 (diff. 154)

Test 2 – pieterson makes his first 100 – a big one 144 (as usual survives many a close call – i wonder how/if he'd have played had things gone another way, ie. if his ave had been 28.4, which it could've been, sticking just to the no-brainers)


finally pakistan.
18.6Shahid Nazir to Pietersen, no run, big shouts, wrongly turned down. Hits the seam, nips back in and comes off the inside-edge onto the pad and through to Kamran Akmal. Pietersen got away with that one, as the replays clearly show. Inzimam rubs his beard, he knows Pietersen’s had a let-off.
he was on 2 but made 135 (diff 133)

and his most recent outing.
36.1Danish Kaneria to Pietersen, no run, oooh, outside edge and dropped. Snorter of a delivery, Pietersen's caught in two minds, and Akmal can't hold on to the feather. Kaneria's just not having the luck today.
On 15 made 96 (diff. 79).

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So in conclusion – the difference is 643. KP has 1597 runs in 34 innings with 1*...now for the science bit:




1597- 643 = 954/33 = 28.9 ( sticking stricktly with innings over 50 – so it could be worse).

In 34 innings KP has hit 11 plus 50 - of those only three were without an absolute chance ... i've been through the commentary now and the catches to vacant areas, outs off no-balls, edges past 2nd slip, inside edges...are too numerous to mention and not helpful for my point, which still is...you'll get a chance. that in itself is true of most batsman but KP will give you a surety before he reaches 50, statistically, 91 % of the time (even without astute captaining which might take advantage of the other opportunities regularly on offer ).

[butchering lee]

it's still just fun - i'd love to see such a thing on other batsmen as i said strauss didn't in his first thee centuries but i'm not going there - not for a while anyway, i'm back at work tomorrow and late nights on this forum are out.

has anyone seen 'the cooler'? i like the idea of someone having so much bad luck he'll pass it to you just by sitting next to you - even better if it worked the other way... KP !


btw, good reading your post ninjaman!

[Quagmire]

Pietersens biggest problem is the same problem that Ponting has they are both so great through mid wicket so any thing remotely pitched straight the play across the line and 90% of the time they put it away the other 10% they go out bowled or LBW. When Ponting and Pietersen play straight instead of through mid wicket they never look like going out.