All-time SA WC Squad

[PaceHitta]

Ok in the other thread I made team of players that didn't really play ODI, and made WC XI with them, now I'm going to supplement them with players that have played in modern times...

My Batsmen Candidates
Hansie Cronje
Jonty Rhodes (need some injection in the fielding)
Gibbs
Kallis
Adrian Kuiper (Big-Hitter)
Lance Klusner (Big-Hitter/All-rounder)
Mark Boucher (wicket-keeper)

My Bowling Candidates
Allan Donald
Shaun Pollock
Ntini
Fanie De villiers

My All-time Team

Barry Richards
Eddie Barlow
Graeme Pollock
Jonty Rhodes
Mike Procter
Clive Rice - Captain
Mark Boucher
Lance Klusner
Shaun Pollock
Makhaya Ntini
Alan Kourie (Spinner)

From my other team I have dropped Lamb and Irvine for Rhodes amd Klusner...i was tempted on bringing Adrian Kuiper on to have another big-hitter.
I dropped Lindsay for Boucher.
I hate not having Donald there...but Peter Pollock makes way for his son Shaun..which also adds more batting depth...and Neil Adcock or Garth Le Roux gets replaced by Ntini
I reasoned to myself that you must a bowling partnership something like Ntini and DOnald as partners might not work.
I kept Kourie some people may argue for Symcox but not me.
What do you think??

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by PaceHitta

I hate not having Donald there...but [...] Neil Adcock or Garth Le Roux gets replaced by Ntini

There's no way Ntini gets in ahead of Donald:

Bowling averages Mat Balls Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 4 5 10
ODIs 164 8561 5926 272 6/23 6/23 21.78 4.15 31.47 11 2 0
ODIs 144 7223 5300 231 6/22 6/22 22.94 4.40 31.26 6 4 0

Donald strikes me as having always been a superior bowler, the rankings agree (794 to 746) and the stats don't suggest anything different: Ntini isn't an unworthy candidate... but I can't see any way he ousts Donald!

[PaceHitta]

not even for a quota...fair enough then...

Barry Richards
Eddie Barlow
Graeme Pollock
Jonty Rhodes
Mike Procter
Clive Rice - Captain
Mark Boucher
Lance Klusner
Shaun Pollock
Allan Donald
Alan Kourie (Spinner)

But with all these older players...is the fielding up to scratch?

[Nostromo]

I feel that any South African ODI team should include Herschelle Gibbs. I know that the guy can be a bit hit and miss, but if he does hit, there are few who can play a long, fast innings like him. Gibbs is a confidence player (like Hoggard for England's bowling in tests), needing boosting from a good captain. He did not get that from either Cronje or Pollock, but seems to be from Smith. And a great fielder to boot.

And I fully agree that Allan Donald should be ahead of Makhaya Ntini in the pecking order.

[Rachael]

Kirsten surely gets in the ODI side ahead of Barlow OR Gibbs: he broke into the World's top ten at the beginning of 1996, hit the top 4 in March of that year and stayed in the top four right through to May '98. For most of that time he was the world's no 1 / 2 ODI batsman. He then had 2 years where he was merely "very good" (top 20) rather than outstanding... before returning to the top 5-6-7 in the world from Aug 2000 to Jan 2002.

Kirsten's peak ODI batting rating is 900: that is all-time great territory. Checking this out... he's equal eighth in the all-time list.. behind Lara but ahead of Sachin Tendulkar. His career best wasn't a flash-in-the-pan, either: we was above the 850 mark from April '96 to Jan '98 - that's almost two years at a level that has thus far eluded Jayasuria, Ganguly, Gilchrist, Kallis and Ponting.

Kirsten's spot should be automatic!!!

[Nostromo]

I like Gary Kirsten as a Test batsman, but not so sure at ODI level despite the 'good' rating. He is a bit too much like Ashwell Prince in his approach; while that might be useful on rare occasions, I believe that most world ODI teams should weed stonewallers out of the game. After all, limited overs cricket is all about entertainment and a 'too safe' approach might be conter-productive on the long run.

I like Gibbs because if he gets going.....he can really get going. His team's position and his own topsy-turvy record has not allowed him to open his shoulders as often as he could have done, but the potential is there. At full throttle, Herschelle Gibbs can be one of the games great entertainers.

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by Nostromo

I like Gary Kirsten as a Test batsman, but not so sure at ODI level [..] I believe that most world ODI teams should weed stonewallers out of the game.

Batting and fielding averages Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 4s 6s Ct St
ODIs 185 185 19 6798 188* 40.95 9436 72.04 13 45 659 20 61 1
ODIs 286 276 22 10470 183 41.22 14160 73.94 22 64 1026 176 98 0
ODIs 375 347 53 11665 137* 39.67 15711 74.24 10 83 109 0
ODIs 233 220 32 7853 141* 41.77 10544 74.47 12 52 635 80 50 0

The top line is Kirsten and the other figures are for Ganguly, Inzi, Yousuf... none "stonewalling" batsmen... but Kirsten near enough matches all three for both average AND strike rate.

ps. two of the first names on an all-time England ODI teamsheet would be KNight and Fairbrother: Kirsten's strike rate is near enough identical....

Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 4s 6s Ct St
ODIs 100 100 10 3637 125* 40.41 5085 71.52 5 25 327 21 44 0
ODIs 75 71 18 2092 113 39.47 2903 72.06 1 16 140 20 33 0

[PaceHitta]

Player Mat Avg S/R

Gibbs 1 98 35,50 81,93
Rhodes 245 35,11 80,91
Kirsten 185 40,95 72,04
Klusener 171 41,10 89,91
Cronje 188 38,64 76,48


What I'm suprised with here, is the stats of Klusener, its not too bad after 171 matches...I starting to get itchy about promoting him up the order. I knew he should have been in the team...but was suprised at his consistency.

As we can see Gibbs has very similar stats to Rhodes except less matches...but I like the idea of putting him in the team since I don't think the fielding was too sophisticated in that 1970 team...and it would be good to inject some more fielding class...Also Nostromo you are right...Gibbs is the sort of player who feeds off the confidence of the team...and I do feel he would thrive under the leadership of Clive Rice as well as having the support of great batsmen.

Kirsten I should not have overlooked, I just seem to think of him as more of a Test batsmen. I'm just bias cause I seem to remember a lot of dips in form...but then again his form probably was better than Gibbs has been during some doldrums. He has the highest average but still has the lowest strike rate (which I guess isn't bad). Would Barry Richards and Graeme Pollock suffice in playing a stabilising role, I think is the question.

I was also suprise that Kourie has an avg with the bat of 34,38, unless I misinterpreted...so he should also get promoted at least above Donald.

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by PaceHitta

What I'm suprised with here, is the stats of Klusener, its not too bad after 171 matches...I starting to get itchy about promoting him up the order. I knew he should have been in the team...but was suprised at his consistency.

If Klusener plays he bats at 6... with Boucher at 7 and Pollock edging ahead of Kourie for the 8-9 spots. That leaves room for both Donald AND Ntini at 10 and 11.

1. Barry Richards
2. Gary Kirsten
3. Graeme Pollock
4. & 5. - two from Mike Procter / Clive Rice / Johnty Rhodes / Hansie Cronje / Jacques Kallis
6. Lance Klusner
7. Mark Boucher
8. Shaun Pollock
9. Alan Kourie (Spinner)
10. Allan Donald
11. Makhaya Ntini

Five genuine bowlers, stacks of batting and a side that no other nation's all-time XI would ever take lightly!

[PaceHitta]

That does look good.
For me on that team 5 & 6 has to be out of Clive Rice, Rhodes or Procter.
I'm liking Clive Rice as a strong captain...and I think Rhodes would also plays a huge interpersonal role in the team and fielding.

Who is going be the opening bowlers with the new ball??...or do we have a case of different horse for different courses?