The greatest ever West Indian batsman

[Ninjaman]

First off, when I say WI greatness is based on batting and bowling I am talking about what they have given to cricket.

They have given the game of cricket some of the best bowlers and batsman the game has ever seen so to make a list of the best players will inclue BOTH not just one discipline.

That, to me, is BEYOND dispute.

Secondly, an all time West Indies XI MUST include Brian Lara.

If it doesn't it is invalid. Simple.

Thridly, only Marshall (the greatest paceman ever) was a better bowler for WI than Ambrose. Wes Hall should not be ranked above Ambrose, Holding or Bibbs as a bowler.

And as a player he cannot get in above Lara, Richards or Headley.

Sobers, Richards, Headley and Lara are WI four most prominent bats.

In fact, I would suggest an all time WI XI will have a top seven of

Greenidge
Haynes
Headley
Richards
Lara
Sobers
Dujon

Lastly, Dujon was a BRILLIANT wicketkeeper. He's too modest. (That modesty even comes across in his commentary style) If he was around now he'd quite easily be highlighted as the best around. His contribution to many of WI vicitims is sorely overlooked.

[Andy Mellon]

Originally Posted by Ninjaman

Thridly, only Marshall (the greatest paceman ever) was a better bowler for WI than Ambrose. Wes Hall should not be ranked above Ambrose, Holding or Bibbs as a bowler.

Well said, Ninjaman. Can't disagree with anything you've said, but the quoted paragraph is the most in line with my opinion. Marshall is far and away the best bowler I've ever seen in the flesh - I doubt ANYONE could ever come near him in my estimation. Ambrose is easily the 2nd best bowler I've ever seen - and I've seen a lot of bowlers in my time.

[mikesiva]

Originally Posted by Rachael

Unless someone can come up with a genuine wicket-keeper... this position is surely not up for negotiation: someone has to be chopped to accomodate him. Perhaps Headley could open instead of Greenidge...

ps. Has there ever been a great WI gloveman at Test level?

pps. Dujon doesn't count himself as one: http://content-uk.cricinfo.com/ci/co...ry/248057.html

Choosing a WI best Test XI is like self-flagellation. whatever team you pick, you're going to feel pain about who you leave out! To me, Lloyd as the windies most successful captain, has to lead the side over worrell and Sobers.

Some old-timers say Gerry Alexander and Jackie Hendriks were better glovemen that Dujon. But what I saw of Dujon was pretty darned impressive, so I'd stick with him! Those acrobatics....

Interestingly, Dujon, Alexander and Hendriks not only came from the same country (Jamaica), but also the same school (Wolmers Boys)! Curiously, Carlton baugh, who's in and out of the windies team, is also a graduate of Wolmers....

[pie_chucker]

Originally Posted by Ninjaman

Secondly, an all time West Indies XI MUST include Brian Lara.

If it doesn't it is invalid. Simple.

Thridly, only Marshall (the greatest paceman ever) was a better bowler for WI than Ambrose. Wes Hall should not be ranked above Ambrose, Holding or Bibbs as a bowler.

And as a player he cannot get in above Lara, Richards or Headley.

Sobers, Richards, Headley and Lara are WI four most prominent bats.

In fact, I would suggest an all time WI XI will have a top seven of

Greenidge
Haynes
Headley
Richards
Lara
Sobers
Dujon

Lastly, Dujon was a BRILLIANT wicketkeeper. He's too modest. (That modesty even comes across in his commentary style) If he was around now he'd quite easily be highlighted as the best around. His contribution to many of WI vicitims is sorely overlooked.

With that top 7 (whivh i agree with) and a Bowling attack of say, Marshall, Ambrose, Holding and Garner, with Sobers as a fifth bower, I cant see any opposition beating this team, ever!

[greg]

Well i can only really go between Viv or Lara as i haven't seen the others so Viv just shades it over Lara as he had just a bit more of the wow factor about his batting.

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by pie_chucker

With that top 7 (whivh i agree with) and a Bowling attack of say, Marshall, Ambrose, Holding and Garner, with Sobers as a fifth bower, I cant see any opposition beating this team, ever!

Lance Gibbs is rated 22nd in the all time bowling lists at the ICC... equal with Laker... and only fractionally behind Warne and Underwood. He had a rating of over 860 (higher that Kumble's career best) from 1963 to 1968.

Sobers peaked at 715. He spent his best years in the 600-700 bracket.

You can argue all you like about the finer points of the rating system... but Sobers was clearly not even close to rivalling Gibbs with the ball: Sobers makes for an excellent second spinner in an all time XI... but an all time Xi ought to have a balanced attack.

Sobers could bowl seam up if a fourth seamer was preferred to a second spinner... so the perfect attack would read something like this:

6. Sobers
7. Dujon
8. Marshall
9. Roberts / Hall / Holding / Garner / Croft
10. Ambrose
11. Gibbs

Tough to match...

Originally Posted by Nostromo

Assuming that all these players are at their peak, can you think of a balanced World XI from any generation to beat this team in a test match?

1. Gavaskar
2. Boycott
3. Border*
4. Miandad
5. G. Chapple
6. Imran Khan
7. Botham
8. Hadlee
9. Knott+
10. Iqbal Qasim / Dilip Doshi / Underwood
11. Lillee

All bar Underwood and Knott were at their peak / topping the ratings in 1981.

You'd need a timeless Test between those two sides!

[Ernest]

Ninjaman - I was taking about any batsman in at team at any given time, not putting all the greatest batsmen in one team, with all the greatest bowlers of all time.

West Indies have had great SIDES - I know better than most, I watched them thrash England.

But doing it your way - a case could be brought for Australia, West Indies have never had a Bradman, Ponting is as good a bat as any West Indies batsman.

Even doing it your way, and cherry picking into one side.

Bradman

Hayden

Ponting --- as good as any all time top three.Warne - NO nation has produced a spin bowler of this calibre, and Lillee and Thompson would have graced ANY side, and that includes the West Indies.

I would still say that man for man the West Indies have had the greatest SIDES, but IMO having watched these sides, it was the bowlers that made them very great.

[pie_chucker]

Originally Posted by Rachael

.

You can argue all you like about the finer points of the rating system... but Sobers was clearly not even close to rivalling Gibbs with the ball: Sobers makes for an excellent second spinner in an all time XI... but an all time Xi ought to have a balanced attack.

Rachael, with the 4 quicks you wouldnt need a spinner! Whilst I agree that Gibbs was a better bowler than Sobers, I would doubt that Sobers would bowl less than 10 overs per innings with that attack.

The windies went nearly 20 years with mostly an all pace attack and destroyed (in some cases literally) all in their path. When you have four fast bowlers who are accurate dont go for many runs and all have excellent (and in Marshalls case out of this world) strike rates why drop one for a less effective bowler.

[Ninjaman]

Ernest,

You don't need to make a case for Australia.

I think you've got my wires crossed.

Rachael made a claim that she'd be happy to see a West Indies all-time top 5 consist of bowlers only.

My response was that WI greatness lies in both batsmen and bowlers.

That is, the West Indies have had great batsmen and bowlers.

So the top 5 must potentially be a mixture of both.

Don't see what there is to not agree with.

Either Richards, Lara, Sobers, Headley and co.. were/are great batsmen or not.

I'm not making any comparisons across teams

[Ninjaman]

FOUR quick, accurate, miserly efficient fast bowlers who could bowl on any surface and get wickets seems balanced to me. All backed up by a guy who could bowl fast-medium opening the innings, orthodox left arm AND chinamen, a brilliant fielder anywhere and as good as a close catcher as there has ever been!

Gibbs was also excellent (in my opinion only surpassed as a right arm off break by Murali) but he should make the side on his own merits NOT because he is a spinner or any strive to find a "balkance" or whatever that is.

As an aside, Gibbs once bowled 53.3-37-38-8 vs India.

I'll have to try and find a report on his spell I once read and post it here.

If you read it, you almost feel like you were in the stadium!