West Indies::R.I.P.

[Ernest]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cric...es/4321081.stm

Well it has happened, West Indies cricket is about to join the minnows like Bangladesh and Zimbabwe.

Originally Posted by BBC Report

Lara dropped over sponsorship row

Well how on Earth are the Windies going to manage without him, one of the worlds top batsmen.

Originally Posted by BBC Report

They have been omitted due to personal sponsorship deals with Cable & Wireless which conflict with the West Indies Cricket Board's main backer Digicel. The others are Ramnaresh Sarwan, Chris Gayle, Fidel Edwards, Dwayne Bravo, Dwayne Smith and Ravi Rampaul.

See what I mean?,what will a West Indies team perform like, without these core players.

How on Earth do these situations arrise?,could this not have been sorted?,who will suffer, the Windies supporters, and cricket itself.
Cricket is nowhere near as popular as it was in the West Indies, other rival sports from th US have taken their toll on attendances at Test matches, this could be just the nail!!!

[Occasional Fan]

It's the mighty dollar again, Ern. It is crazy of the players to imagine that they can cut sponsorship deals with one company while their board is cutting a sponsorship deal with a competitor. I would also suggest that it is pretty daft for a company to do deals with individual sportsmen like this: you can sensibly do it in sports which are for individuals (tennis, for example), but in this day and age everyone knows that team sports attract sponsorship of teams as a whole. I don't know what the players' contracts with C&W say, nor what Digicel's contract with the WICB says, but presumably the problem is that the two are incompatible. My guess is that the individual players will have to back down on their commitments to C&W, and instinctively I would say that that is the right outcome - the financial security of their team must be more important than lining their own pockets. They'll have to negotiate their own ways out of their sponsorship contracts, of course, and hopefully that can be done without C&W exacting unreasonable penalties.

In the meantime, from a cricketing point of view, I agree that this is a huge blow to WI cricket. A WI team without these names really has little chance of competing with South Africa and Pakistan. However, the South Africans don't arrive in the West Indies for another couple of weeks, and the Pakistan series is not until May, so there should be some time to sort this mess out.

[Zainub]

They had the same problem just before the VB Series, didn't they? Somehow though the managed to resolve it (now it seems whatever resolution they come up with was definately temporary) but I read many reports of the new sponsors Digicel not being happy with the attitude of some of the players, especially the ones who have personal contracts with Cable and Wirless, including a particular report about Brian Lara in which he allegedly told the Digicil representative travelling with the team something on the lines of our shirts may have digicel written on them but from the inside we're all cable and wireless...?!!?!!

I don't know how true that report was (I can't even verify now since I can't remember -even vagely- where I had read it) but it ridiculous all the same that a serious threat should consume West Indies cricket and its future all because of a God damned sponsorship deal, something similar happened between the Indian players and their personal sponsors and the official sponsors of the World Cup...it was annoying then, it remains annoying today....

All the blame goes to the players for me, how come they're sooo selfish they can't over turn their existing contracts with C&W and stick with whatever sponsors the board is telling them to - personal sponsorship deals after all shouldn't be more important then being in the team it self? Or should it be? I'm not a financial expert or anything but I'm sure Brian Lara and his fellow c&w contracted players will not suffer any serious financial dangers or threats of any other nature if they quit they contarcts with C&W and commit to the board and team sponsor Digicel...surely they can't be that selfish?

Your concerns Ern, I'm afriad are spot on, if WI lose these players it will do more harm to West Indies cricket in the short and long term then we can possibly imagine.

[Ninjaman]

How on Earth do these situations arrise?,could this not have been sorted?,who will suffer, the Windies supporters, and cricket itself.

My first post here. So hi to all!!

This situatiosn arise when you have an incompetent board.

There incompetence has manifested itself for the last 15-20 years or so and only now people are finally seeing it.

They were incompetent during many of the years we were the best ever but the team papered over the cracks.

Now the team is losing, no one can hide

Cricket is nowhere near as popular as it was in the West Indies, other rival sports from th US have taken their toll on attendances at Test matches, this could be just the nail!!!

Incorrect.

Cricket is just as popular in the Caribbean.

People may watch US sports on TV but in terms of participation, cricket holds on to its #2 spot behind football. Yes, football was always #1 participation even during the 70s and 80s.

Don't assume how good a country is at a sport is commensurate to its worldwide success in it.

Other factors like the econmy and price and time taken have affected match attendance. Plus the decline in overall quality. A spectator sport still has to produce the good for people to watch it.

For years, the WICB would dilly and dally when it came to paying players.

In fact, there are still members of the 70s/80s squad who are allegedly owed money.

Players sought to get personal sponsorship deals to put food on their table.

Now because Digicel want everything, they've pushed the buton to have those it doesn't like out.

Now, a Digicel contracted player, Chanderpaul, looks set to be named captain.

The players collectively through their union have presented a case to the WICB as to how much they want to ensure that an issue likes this never happens, yet the WICB is not playing ball.

Furthermore, it keeps losing money, year after year, a fact noyt due to any payments to players.

Yet its own books are not open to scrutiny and the issue of monies paid to board members and monies lost in bad investments by the board are shrouded in secrecy.

On top of that C&W have said they did show the WICB their personal contracts, so to use that as an excuse is folly.

It doesn't surprise me it has come to this.

The idea that a player can't have a personal sponsorship contract and be part of a team sponsored by a competitor is just silly.

Loads of footballers have boot deals with companies who are rivals to their clubs sponsors.

A month ago, Larqa just scored the best ODI century of 2005 so far in a Digicel shirt so this issue is about incompetent people going power mad and doing their worst for a proverbial 30 pieces of silver.

[Zainub]

Its great to know the views of some one who is much better aware of the ground situation in the Carribean than most of the regulars here on this board, welcome to the board Ninjaman, I'm sure you'll have a good time here.

Your post has made me even more concerned, I'd hate to play against a second string West Indies side, WI are already not the strongest side in the world, and it would do them no good if they starting losing players, and not only any player, players as influential and as important to the side as Sarwan and Lara. I hope the situations gets resolved, who ever we might want to put the blame on.

I personally think however incompetent the board might be, the players should be sensible enough to realise their personal sponsorship deals are not bigger or more important then the team it self. They should back out of their C&W deals in my opinion, for the team's sake at least if nothing else.

[Ninjaman]

Originally Posted by Zainub Razvi

Its great to know the views of some one who is much better aware of the ground situation in the Carribean than most of the regulars here on this board, welcome to the board Ninjaman, I'm sure you'll have a good time here.

Your post have made me even more concerned, I'd hate to play against an already weak WI side go further down the barel by losing more players, and not only any player, players as influential and important to the side as Sarwan and Lara. I hope the situations gets resolved, who ever we might want to put the blame on.

I personally think however incompetent the board might be, the players should be sensible enough to realise their personal sponsorship deals are not bigger or more important then the team it self.

Hello Zainub.

Personally, having spoken to a few of the protagonists, I don't think they feel their deals are more important than the team. i don't see any of these players thinking that at all.

After all, their deals are dependent on them beoing WI team members!!

A huge bonus was paid to the WI for winning the ICC. The board seemed to want to pocket all of that for itself.

The board still wishes to maintain a mightier than thou do as we say attitude to players. This is an attitude that could be adopted years ago, but nowadays it doesn't work. One must compromise and negotiate without having to call the players' union "militant" or as Digicel's repsentative did, call them "fascist".

That is not right.

In fact for every enlightening thing that has happened to WI in the last 10 years, Lara has been a part of 90% of it.

The likes of him could walk out on his C&W contract if he wanted to as he is a rich man. But he is expressing his solidarity with all players because he realises that this benefits all future players down the line.

Yet, all we hear week in week out is that he is selfish!!

He could retire tomorrow and wash his hands clean.

Yet he still sticks around in a poor team trying to do his best as a "servant".

The like of Gayle and Sarwan, both have been batsmen who have survived their early baptisms of fire and in Test cricket look like improving their averages.

Now they are dropped.

We shall see, my friend, we shall see what transpires.

[Ernest]

Originally Posted by Ninjaman

My first post here. So hi to all!!

Hi and welcome to WAT, hope to see more contributions.

Originally Posted by Ninjaman

Cricket is just as popular in the Caribbean.

People may watch US sports on TV but in terms of participation, cricket holds on to its #2 spot behind football. Yes, football was always #1 participation even during the 70s and 80s.

Interesting, I said what I did from 3rd party comments, I can't really have first hand knowlage.
Having said that,not good that US sports dominate sports viewing on TV, this could well expand to live sport, the Americans know how to market a product, and will be watching the Windies off field troubles.

Originally Posted by Ninjaman

In fact, there are still members of the 70s/80s squad who are allegedly owed money.

Players sought to get personal sponsorship deals to put food on their table.

Now because Digicel want everything, they've pushed the buton to have those it doesn't like out.

Now, a Digicel contracted player, Chanderpaul, looks set to be named captain.

Yep that story of unpaid players from them 80s, has been aired before, is it true?,I wonder.


Good post, I have a question, when the Windies where at their best, was football still no one sport?,
and more important, was cricket watched more on tv.

[Zainub]

Originally Posted by Ninjaman

Personally, having spoken to a few of the protagonists, I don't think they feel their deals are more important than the team. i don't see any of these players thinking that at all.

I'm relived to know that

A huge bonus was paid to the WI for winning the ICC. The board seemed to want to pocket all of that for itself. The board still wishes to maintain a mightier than thou do as we say attitude to players. This is an attitude that could be adopted years ago, but nowadays it doesn't work. One must compromise and negotiate without having to call the players' union "militant" or as Digicel's repsentative did, call them "fascist". That is not right.

That's disapointing to know. All the money that is in the sport is directly or indirectly becuase of the players, they I've always said should get majority out of the total money that is made out of any competetion, the rest should be divided appropriately between usage for developement of the game it self and other purposes. Its ridiculous of the WICB to try and not deprive players of their due financial returns.

In fact for every enlightening thing that has happened to WI in the last 10 years, Lara has been a part of 90% of it. The likes of him could walk out on his C&W contract if he wanted to as he is a rich man. But he is expressing his solidarity with all players because he realises that this benefits all future players down the line.

No one is discrediting Lara from what he has done for West Indies cricket, the thing that beats me though is why anyone of the players Lara or otherwise should be so hell bent on getting the extra money the will earn by getting personal sponsorship from C&W, its not that Digicel won't offer them personal sponsorship deals, is it?

[Occasional Fan]

Originally Posted by Ninjaman

Loads of footballers have boot deals with companies who are rivals to their clubs sponsors.

Ninjaman - welcome to the board and thanks for an interesting opening post. I just want to pick up on the one point quoted above: I don't know much about football and sponsorship deals, but surely there is a difference between this sort of deal, where I guess part of the arrangement is to use a given company's boots when playing, and the sort of issue which appears to have arisen with the WI cricketers? Boots, after all, are an essential part of the footballer's playing equipment, and if Nike pay David Beckham to wear their boots and he finds that they are comfortable for him (as well, presumably, as coming at a good price!), I can see why a personal arrangement would work. In the present cricket case, however, we are talking about two different telephone operators aren't we? And, at least so far, no-one carries a mobile phone on the pitch, so presumably we are talking about something like shirt advertising of a product. If the WICB has done a deal in the interests of the game in the West Indies whereby Brian Lara wears a Digicel shirt when playing, I can understand Digicel being miffed if he then turns up on a TV commercial saying how great his C&W mobile phone is (and even more so if he is insisting on playing in a shirt which has two logos on it). It really does seem to me that, if we are talking about sponsorship by a company whose product is not sport-related, personal deals are going to cause confusion and de-value the brand awareness campaign which the WICB's sponsors are paying for.

None of this is to undermine your comments on the competence or otherwise of the WICB. We have had some comments on the board over the past few months about unpaid player fees and so on. That also needs to be sorted out if it hasn't already happened. However, one thing's for sure: for WI cricket to get back to the heights which we know it can attain - and which can only be for the good of the sport worldwide - the players and the Board have to start working as partners and not competitors. I really hope this will be fixed soon, for the good of West Indies cricket and for the good of cricket worldwide.

[Ninjaman]

Digicel have offered to sponsor WI cricket.

They have paid their money and earned that right.

They have not earned the right to be able to tell individual players what to do and who they may sign with outside of the actual performing for WI.

Their contract is between themselves and the WICB.

At the recent VC series, the players played and wore a shirt with Digicel on the front.

At venues away from the games themselves, the Digicel representative tried to get some of the players to make individual appearances promoting Digicel including C&W contracted players.

He was rightly told where to go.

On top of such poor unsavvy behaviour, it has come to pass that his actions with regards to player actions were above and beyong what a normal sponsoirs rep should do.

None of the players are centrally contracted to the WICB on a permanent basis like say with England.

There are no central contracts.

In fact, players are retained on a tour by tour basis.

Then the captain is picked.

So, in reality, to say Brian Lara IS captain is actually not true. He was just the last person to captain them in a series.

With such a lack of continuity is it any wonder.

So, when a company long established in the WI like C&W offers you a personal endorsement contract, do you say no because of the WICB??

The same WICB that has been known to go months without paying ANY players.

The same WICB that will drop you in a heartbeat but keep picking the likes of 30 Test failure Daren Ganga because his unclle is a selector (Joey Carew) .

The same WICB, that will send inexperienced bowlers to England but send NO bowling coach. Then blame the capt. for his bowlers getting slapped like schoolboys.

With respect to football, footballers regulalry sign boot deals with one manufacturer and appear in their ads as THEMSELVES. i.e. "John Smith wears Nike".

However, the team he plays for will wear Adidas, for example, and he will appear as part of the team. Thus "The World-A-Team XI wears Adidas" etc...

As long as when he does his personal endorsements, there is no use of the WICB's imagery, then NO ONE has the right to say he/she can't have such a contract.

So a fictional ad with Lara or Sarwan on a porch saying that C&W is the best is just his right to do so and NOT grounds for his non-selection.

That is restraint of trade.

Now, if the WICB gives the player's central contracts and pays them adequately to just play and train hard and forego any deals with rivals to the WICB sponsors and ask for approval for all other sponsorship deals, then I would be in agreement with you.

The likes of Ravi Rampaul and Dwayne Smith would not have been selected for this visit by SA anyway and have not been selected for sometime.

So, with respect to them, these sponsorship deals have been the things paying them and NOT the WICB.