Why WI REALLY can't win Test matches

[Ninjaman]

Originally Posted by vvvrulz

Actually good points there, but regarding responses to 500+ scores, look at the Indians for example in Australia, they simple went out, with their batting riches, and met that score blow for blow. The West Indies can never seem to do that.

Because mentally, the Indian batting line-up is stronger.

I also picked up an interesting article somewhere (ill post a link when i find it again), which tried to explain why so often Brian Lara smashes a brilliant innings only to have the rest of his men capitulate, the only time they seemed to play as a team was when Brian Lara was NOT there, in the first test. What is the problem with this... his aura perhaps? The article goes on to say that he maybe intimidates the blokes in the locker room merely by being there.

The article says "maybe" he intimidates.

Everyone who knows the score knows that is foolishness.

WI caught South Africa cold in the first Test. It was a batting strip and only TWO batsmen really plundered the bowling. Hinds (who was dropped on 13) and Chanderpaul.

They bowled them out cheaply in the 1st innings and then could not get them out in the 2nd when the threat of losing caused South Africa to buckle up.

Let us forget this "they played as a team" rubbish.

They capitulated in the 2nd and 3rd Tests and Lara was the one with Chanderpaul on one occasion who saved them from complete embarassment.

On the basis of just ONE Test, you are willing to make a claim that without Lara, they play as a team??

Maybe, as ridiculous and sad as it sounds, Brian Lara is the problem for the West Indies.

You got it right, it sounds ridiculous and sad.

What does he do??

He comes into a side as a batsman (since he is not captain) as such, he is entrusted to score runs. He did that twice very well with 196 and 176, IMO the two best knocks of the series.

At Trinidad, he comes in at 13-2 after 7.2 overs.

He departs at 347 all out. So stays for 334 runs of which he scores 196.

His presence did not intimidate Sarwan not to get a century in the 2nd innings.

At Barbados, he comes in at 12-2 after 5.5 overs, gets out 274 runs later at 286 for 6 of which he scores 176.

He leaves at 86.2 overs with 4 wickets left in hand.

WI are all out 10 runs and 6 overs later.

So he comes in after early collapses and when he leaves there are collapses.

Saves their behinds and yet, he is the problem??

When they got the batting strip from heaven (even superior to the 1st Test) and Lara only got 4, how comes the intimidation stopped long enough for a triple century and 3 other centurions??

In saying that of course, their bowling line-up is terrible to say the least, and that really needs to be addressed, but I'm not overly happy with their batting performances either, I just can't help but feel they are capable of posting 500+ scores against any attack, on any surface.

Well they are capable and seeing as Lara and Chanderpaul (who strangely doesn't allow intimidation to stop him pushing his average towards 50) are doing their part, maybe we should be looking at the other batsmen who are inconsistent instead of blaming the world's best batsman.

[vvvrulz]

I have no doubt Lara is the best batsman in the world, he is an absolute genius. And when I am referring to intimidation, I mean more so the younger players in the team. Shiv Chanderpaul and Sarwan are much more experienced than that.

However Lara has been reffered as, recently by Ridley Jacobs I believe, that he is not a team man, and simply goes out and belts the opposition for his own sake. I also recall during Englands tour (not the last one but one in the nineties), that Darren Gough singled out Lara as his bunny, and then and only then did Lara cream yet another classy hundred. Where was all this beforehand? A similar thing happened before his Sydney hundred, he got booted off the training nets or something along those lines, only then to plunder the Australians. Why can't he find this flair unless it strikes him personally?

How is it, that a batsman so brilliant, can't bring his team along with the tide and lead them to victory. I find it most peculiar. This of course is taking nothing away from the man, who like is said, is a genius. I just can't help but think he could convert more of this outstanding knocks into victories by carrying the team with his momentum. Like you said, as soon as he is gone, the rest skittle like dominoes.. why ??

[Ninjaman]

Originally Posted by vvvrulz

I have no doubt Lara is the best batsman in the world, he is an absolute genius. And when I am referring to intimidation, I mean more so the younger players in the team. Shiv Chanderpaul and Sarwan are much more experienced than that.

However Lara has been reffered as, recently by Ridley Jacobs I believe, that he is not a team man, and simply goes out and belts the opposition for his own sake.

He was a team man when WI had something worthy of the name TEAM.

They don't now and so all manner of blame is placed on him.

I also recall during Englands tour (not the last one but one in the nineties), that Darren Gough singled out Lara as his bunny, and then and only then did Lara cream yet another classy hundred. Where was all this beforehand? A similar thing happened before his Sydney hundred, he got booted off the training nets or something along those lines, only then to plunder the Australians. Why can't he find this flair unless it strikes him personally?

First off, you can only score runs when you get the opportunity to. People speak of him as if when he gives us something genius, he could have delivered it whenever he wanted too.

If Lara could score a 50 every innings, he would.

The fact that Gough or whoever said what they said and then Lara delivered, can that not be put down to coincidence?

As for, he bats for his own sake, well maybe if the others attmepted that and succeeded even half as well as Lara, then we might be on to something.

Remember only Bradman and Headley have scored more runs for their sides.

It is no secret that Brian Lara is a private person and is not the quickest to be open with anybody especially moreso nowadays with so many vicious untrue rumours about what he is supposed to have done.

But he also has drive and determination and a pride in WI cricket which none of his teammates match. It is that drive which makes him who he is and as successful a batsman.

Captaincy didn't work out for him but we are also seeing that Shiv isn't doing anything either proving Lara is not the problem

[b]How is it, that a batsman so brilliant, can't bring his team along with the tide and lead them to victory. I find it most peculiar.

Ever thought that his teammates might be the problem??

[b]This of course is taking nothing away from the man, who like is said, is a genius. I just can't help but think he could convert more of this outstanding knocks into victories by carrying the team with his momentum. Like you said, as soon as he is gone, the rest skittle like dominoes.. why ??

To win a game you have to also bowl.

We don't have any match winners

When we get them then batsmen will be able to win games and not just save them.

Last FIVE Test wins not against Zim or Bangladesh

1. Sri Lanka 2003

Lara matchwinning 80*

Edwards 5 for 36 then Collymore 7 for 57

2. Australia 2003

Lara 68 and 60

Lawson 7 for 78

3. India 2002

Lara 55

Others pick up the slack

Merv Dillon 5 for 71

4. India 2002

Dillon 4 for 41 and Sanford 3 for 20 then Dillon 4 for 82

5. South Africa 2001

Lara 81

Dillon and Walsh get 3 and 4, then Walsh, Dillon and Ramnarine get 3 apiece.

And no need to mention the Australia 1999 series where he did his thing when the bowlers gave him a chance too.

Also when he scored 688 runs vs Sri Lanka (the highest 5 of any team's runs in a 3 Test series by any batsman), he was trying to lift the team but no one responded.

[Ninjaman]

http://content.cricinfo.com/ci/content/story/97533.html

Lara who dominated the series with the bat, scoring 688 runs, including two centuries and one double ton, also claimed his "door was open" to the young players should they need any advice and admitted that he would trade in all his runs to start the series again.

"My door is always open," he said. "The young players have got to realise that we have players around them who have played a lot of Test matches – including the likes of Gordon Greenidge, Desmond Haynes, Roger Harper, Carl Hooper, Viv Richards and myself – and that experience should be used. Personally I have not had many guys coming to me and asking what it is all about. I would like to see more than that from the young players. When I was younger Viv Richards couldn't keep me out of his room because I wanted to know all about Test cricket and how to be successful. At all levels we need the input of ex-cricketers. We need to have people thinking about cricket.

Said in 2001.

I assure you, not much has changed.

Our players do not have the cricketing intelligence to succeed at the top level, thus they show their talent in flashes and not for sustained periods.

So Graeme Smith can work out how to get Wavell Hinds out down to a tee. Clue: He invariably is out caught behind or in slips, yet our players can't seem to attack the most basic of an opposing batsman's weaknesses.

Result: Runs are plundered ad nauseam against WI bowling attacks

[Teatime FatCat]

Ninj,

I'd agree that at the moment your bowling looks pretty pedestrian, and coupled with potentially a real destructive batting line-up it must be real frustrating. We in England have had many pedestrian attacks and have been battered by many batters, so we feel your pain!

I think, with the right bowling coach (Courtney, Holding, Bruce Reid, Botham, Donald, Curtley, Sobers, Bishop etc) you could put an attack together - but the young players have got to get a few one to one sessions with these guys and be willing to learn.

I think and attack of Collins, Edwards, Lawson and Bravo wouldn't be too bad. certainly if someone could get Fidel to bowl a consistant line, and Jerome a consistent length! add that to a batting line-up of -

Gayle
Hinds
Sarwan
Lara
Chanders
Deorarine (excuse spelling)
Browne

That leaves 4 out and out bowlers with two part time spinners and a partnership breaking medium pacer.

This idea is based on getting much more out of two of the strike bowlers than anyone has managed in the last couple of years!

[vvvrulz]

Very nice arguements ninja, ive gotta say.

You're right, much does depend on the bowlers standing up to the task, and the current lineup is visibly not capable of penetrating a good batting side. However, I still can't help but feel that with a man like Brian Lara in the side, he should be able to inspire his boys into doing great things.

I draw examples from the current Pakistani bowling line-up, their pace attack without Shoaib was deemed to be very average, but they gave the Indians a good work over purely because their boys were inspired to do so. They were hungry, they were disciplined, but not necessarily purely talented. This is what I want to see from the Windies boys, and their driving force ideally should be their captain.

Teatime> A bowling line-up like that would indeed be a force to be recokened with, but their lifeless approach to the game is whats really letting them down.