Why WI REALLY can't win Test matches

[Ninjaman]

West Indies Bowling
 
 Name                Mat    O      M     R   W    Ave  Best   5 10    SR  Econ
  CH Gayle              3  107.5   35   219    8  27.37  4-50   -  -  80.8  2.03
 PT Collins            2   75     20   188    6  31.33  3-39   -  -  75.0  2.50
 RD King               3  107.5   20   260    6  43.33  3-48   -  - 107.8  2.41
 WW Hinds              4   42     13    91    2  45.50  1-9    -  - 126.0  2.16
 DB Powell             4  149     29   487    9  54.11  3-61   -  -  99.3  3.26
 N Deonarine           2   52.5   17   129    2  64.50  1-5    -  - 158.5  2.44
 TL Best               1   31      4   147    2  73.50  1-31   -  -  93.0  4.74
 DJJ Bravo             3  102     17   307    4  76.75  2-98   -  - 153.0  3.00
 RO Hinds              2   58     19   123    1 123.00  1-27   -  - 348.0  2.12
 D Ganga               1    1      0     4    0    -     -     -  -    -   4.00
 RR Sarwan             3    8      0    29    0    -     -     -  -    -   3.62
 S Chanderpaul         4   15      6    31    0    -     -     -  -    -   2.06
 DM Washington         1   29      4    93    0    -     -     -  -    -   3.20
 FH Edwards            1   32.5    3   112    0    -     -     -  -    -   3.4

Chris Gayle tops the bowling averages and is one short of topping the wicket haul too.

Not one WI bowler took even 10 wickets over 4 Test matches.

So you could have 6 Bradman's in the side or you could spend a whole day debating the "negative" influence one player has on the other so called professional players and you can debate who should be captain but ultimately, you have not got a snowball's chance in Hell with such an insipid, toothless attack.

[Kirsty Harris]

You are right to say that the WI bowlers are a major factor in the poor fortune of the sides, but the blame doesn't just rest with them as individuals. They are, by and large, youngster's still learning their trade. Some of them , most noticeabley Tino Best, show some promise. I think perhaps the WI need to examine the structure of their cricket to change the long term picture, rather like England did a few years ago.

[Captain]

The problem here is not young people or coaches, rather team work. From the looks of it the WI lads have not really come together as a team, and from what i see they should have bonding sessions. That and a look at the set up of there cricket structure, the contract disputes are ripping the team apart and the WI cricket authorities should be concerned about keeping the team together, also Lara has become a bit independent, maybe needs a break?

[Zainub]

Poitn well made C. Trouble with WI cricket right now is not only are they having problems with their cricket on field but off it too they have issues that are all worsenning the sitaution. It is a real mess. Although they probably have taken the first step in the right direction by bringing in Bennet King, he strikes me as a man who strives for perfection, and given he is given time (and the WICB can get's it acts sorted out and improve the stucture of the game domestically) WI will definately improve, they have the talent (guys like Bravo impress me no end), it is just about application and consistency. It will probably come with time because as we all note some of these players are indeed very young. These players will learn their trade on the field, plus, for things to go back the upward curve, the off field issues must also be delt with.

[Ninjaman]

Originally Posted by Kirsty Harris

You are right to say that the WI bowlers are a major factor in the poor fortune of the sides, but the blame doesn't just rest with them as individuals. They are, by and large, youngster's still learning their trade. Some of them , most noticeabley Tino Best, show some promise. I think perhaps the WI need to examine the structure of their cricket to change the long term picture, rather like England did a few years ago.

Tino Best should never play another Test for the West Indies.

He is an idiot. All talk and no action. I find it funny how so many people think what they see as potential and promise. All huff and very little puff.

As for your comment about restructuring the game.

Well said.

I have mentioned this many times on these forums whenever the "Lara is the cause" arguments rear their ugly head.

And things like this are what underpin a whole national game but they are hardly discussed.

Once again, well said Kirsty.

[Rachael]

Originally Posted by Ninjaman

Tino Best should never play another Test for the West Indies.

I don't know that he should never play another Test: he's only a kid and in 10 years time he might be an entirely better prospect. I would, however, agree that he should never have PLAYED any Tests: throwing him in out of his depth was a real sign of desperation and it's probably done neither the WI nor Best himself any favours.

Thing is.. the same could be said of pretty much all the other contenders right now! Only Pedro Collins and Corey Collymore look ready for Test cricket.. and they don't inspire as a frontline new-ball pairing (solid 1st change bowlers, fine, but not much more than that).

Look on the bright side: in 4-5 years time the WI will almost certainly be over-run with bowlers who are approaching their prime, with decent experience under their belt and a fair bit to offer. Only downside of that is that once Lara and Chanderpaul have gone their might be no decent batting available....

It's the long term WI batting that worries me more than the long term bowling: the bowling coaching does at least appear to be in good hands and going in the right direction.. but in batting terms I'm just not sure.

[vvvrulz]

I can't quite define what exacly the problem is with the West Indies, its really bizarre.

Here is a batting sheet boasting some of the most destructive players in the world. Yet time and time again, four of the big five fail miserably and effectively they fold the test match. Why on earth does this keep happening !

I too used to blame the bowling, and lets face it, the majority of them are indeed trolley pushers. But I get the feeling, like Rachael says, its the batting thats a worry. India get by fine with a bowling attack that isnt necessarily the greatest, simply because their batsman continually deliver, as they should. Why the Windies can't do it I have no clue. Those pathetic sub-100 scores come to mind immediately during the South Africa and England series. Why oh why...

[Ninjaman]

Originally Posted by Captain

The problem here is not young people or coaches, rather team work. From the looks of it the WI lads have not really come together as a team, and from what i see they should have bonding sessions. That and a look at the set up of there cricket structure, the contract disputes are ripping the team apart and the WI cricket authorities should be concerned about keeping the team together, also Lara has become a bit independent, maybe needs a break?

Bonding sessions??

You know I can tell you right now that these guys bond very well when the bonding has zilch to do with cricket.



Youi best believe. If it is about "bonding" as only young men can do, then they would hit Australia for 600-2 off their 50 overs!!!

But I know you mean teamwork on the pitch.

They are a losing side and mentally it is tougher to be losers than winners. Winning breeds confidence and they have very little at the mo. That is why when they get a period of good play, they don't know how to sustain it and when the going gets tough, their heads drop.

Ultimately, the fundamentals still have to be correct before a factor like teamwork will have it's full effect. That is batting and bowling properly.

Because of the structure of our game, our young players are entering the top level at a far earlier time in their career than their English or Aussie counterpart. Added in with far less coaching and hardly any thought to the mental aspect of the game, we expect some guys whose FC career isn't even average to hold their own consistently against players with world class players.

You see when I post those averages, I am saying the bowlers could do better but I understand why they often don't. But I am pointing out the straight up reason WI don't win games.

They struggle to bowl teams out once regularly let alone twice.

The problems facing WI cricket are actually problems facing the West Indies as a whole in many other walks of life.

Now in real life, one person having a level of personal success can't be the reason for a whole region falling. Yet somehow, we spend time blaming Lara's ability to perform highly in a poor team as the reason the team is poor.

And the WICB loves this. Because every minute wasted blaming him (and they know he will respond by scoring runs and saying ), means one less minute getting to the root of the problem: their incompetence.

Many people expect the former players to have their input. And a few do. But the WICB, in many cases, expects those players to do it for FREE!!!

Ultimately, this all boils down to the board, who in our heyday used to consist of a small number of people\ but now have a huge impressive number of staff doing God only knows what!

I don't know what you mean about Lara being independent and frankly don't see why he needs to rest.

[Ninjaman]

Originally Posted by vvvrulz

I can't quite define what exacly the problem is with the West Indies, its really bizarre.

Here is a batting sheet boasting some of the most destructive players in the world. Yet time and time again, four of the big five fail miserably and effectively they fold the test match. Why on earth does this keep happening !

I too used to blame the bowling, and lets face it, the majority of them are indeed trolley pushers. But I get the feeling, like Rachael says, its the batting thats a worry. India get by fine with a bowling attack that isnt necessarily the greatest, simply because their batsman continually deliver, as they should. Why the Windies can't do it I have no clue. Those pathetic sub-100 scores come to mind immediately during the South Africa and England series. Why oh why...

Inability to bowl out the opposition twice happens far more often than inability to post a good score for the WI.

Get real!!

A batting line up that KNOWS its bowlers cannot do the job has much more pressure on them.

Sometimes, they come off, sometimes they don't.

The bowling equivalent of getting bowled out for 47 and 94 is getting hammered for 500 and 600 and then having the opposition declare.

That has happened on a far more regular basis than the batting.

SA did that twice in the series just gone.

When we were in South AFrica and lost 3-0, they did so in ALL four Tests and WI still scored over 300 on SIX occasions.

Apart from Zimbabwe and Bangladesh, the last time we took 20 wickets in a Test match was in 2003 vs Sri Lanka.

We won that game.

The time before that was vs Australia at Antigua. We won that game.

And before that New Zealand in 2002. We lost.

And May 2002, is the last time the WI bowlers defended a total wo win a Test match, when we beat India at home.

And our last overseas Test win against a major Test nation was in 2000 and is the last time our attack has defended a total to win a game away from home but neither Ambrose, Walsh or even Rose are still around. And back then Reon King could actually bowl

So in the time since the 2003 World CUp we have only bowled a team out twice on TWO occasions.

Yet we have passed 400 on a handful of times and 300 quite frequently surprisingly.

And our batting is a worry????

Taking out Lara, who is legendary and has just a few years left in him.

Since WC2003,

Gayle has over 1700 runs at 45 (317 helps a bit)
Sarwan has 1900 at 47.
Chanderpaul has 1700 at 51.
(For the record, Lara has 2900 at 68)

As for the future, I cannot tell what will happen but I would bet a fair number of the bowlers you see now will not be around.

And it is precisely because our bowling performs consistently poorer than our batting that you have seen more young bowlers tossed into the mix than batsmen.

Young batsmen are also there waiting for their chance to play.

Plus two young keepers.

Gayle is one of the best allrounders in ODIs.
Sarwan got himself to #1 rated ODI batsman and player of the tournament at the ICC Trophy.

We have better ODI success in chasing scores (our bating is better) and do better at ODIs because you don't have to bowl a side out to win a ODI.

[vvvrulz]

Actually good points there, but regarding responses to 500+ scores, look at the Indians for example in Australia, they simple went out, with their batting riches, and met that score blow for blow. The West Indies can never seem to do that.

I also picked up an interesting article somewhere (ill post a link when i find it again), which tried to explain why so often Brian Lara smashes a brilliant innings only to have the rest of his men capitulate, the only time they seemed to play as a team was when Brian Lara was NOT there, in the first test. What is the problem with this... his aura perhaps? The article goes on to say that he maybe intimidates the blokes in the locker room merely by being there.

Maybe, as ridiculous and sad as it sounds, Brian Lara is the problem for the West Indies.

In saying that of course, their bowling line-up is terrible to say the least, and that really needs to be addressed, but I'm not overly happy with their batting performances either, I just can't help but feel they are capable of posting 500+ scores against any attack, on any surface.