Fine, if you want to enforce it so, then go ahead. However, you need to qualify your last statement, if you could that would be great. How do you think a Mahmood-less side would be less balanced? Is it solely pace, or do we need more slingers?

N.B. It seems Mahmood only has one more vote than Mr. Popular Rikki Clarke, so maybe this debate is redundant?

I will qualify my last statement with ease really.

1) It's not just about pace, Mahmood can get swing at pace, and reverse swing, no he's not a slinger.

2) He does give us a pace option , or a strike option that probably the others could not give, to bring balance to a side with Broad and Tremlett, or whoever else is picked.

So to answer your question - Mahmood brings that extra dimension to an otherwise line and length attack.

I can't see any other bowler be it Onions or Broad who is capable of bowling divesting spells like we know Mahmood can, it's worth remembering that Mahmood would only be one element of the pace attack, there would also be Tremlett (and Tom Smith or Broad) to make the attack more diverse.

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Ern

Let's bear in mind here that Broad is the only bowler of our final contenders who has had to suffer batting on lifeless pitches of division 2. Yes, the batsmen, generally, are not in the same league (literally) as division 1 batsmen but on helpful pitches slightly straying off line and length bowlers can get away with (think Steve Harmison on a really bouncy wicket). On flat decks if you aren't Glenn McGrath you go for more runs than you would on a helpful pitch.

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James May

Ok but if he bowls on dead pitches against weaker opposition, what when he plays on better pitches with more pace in them, and also on the ball for better batsmen to exploit.

A good pitch for bowling can be a nightmare for a bowler not used to bowling in such conditions, learing to bowl on faster pitches means learning by experience.

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Ern

My generalization of flat might have been a slight exaggeration of what Broad will have bowled on. Most of the time pitches were dead (a comment voiced by second division cricketers that I heard on Sky commentary) but Broad will have actually had some exposure (most likely away from Grace Road) to seaming conditions. He seamed the ball on Twenty20 finals day so I can guarantee at least one time he's had the opportunity.

We're not talking of Broad going from concrete to grass here. Maybe just 'setting' concrete.

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James May

Well I hope he builds on that [one] experience and we can select him next year .

Seriously though from the rags of the Div2 to the riches of the WAT England A Team over Mahmood - simply beggers belief.

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Ern

I wasn't making a claim to ditch Mahmood from the side - my argument was aimed against Tom Smith who has more helpful pitches at his disposal to help the ball pass the bat countless times whereas Broad generally had pitches where batsmen could simply play the line of the ball.

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James May

Somehow David Masters (Right-arm medium-fast) managed an economy rate of 2.64 on the same pitches on which Broad was carted at 3.83. It's not right to blame the pitches:Broad just ain't ready yet.

Rachael, how are you going to finalize the team? We seem to be endlessly debating this. Can we get down to a couple of probable teams and start discussing the balance rather than who should be in or out. Those players should be clear by now.

I'm waiting on three responses to the confidential poll: these should eliminate 2 of the 3 middle order batsmen and 1 of the 4 seamers. That should give us a provisional XI and at that point it's up to folk to make final arguments for last minute revisions.

I appreciate that with all the names in place folk might want to reconsider... and I'll watch the thread with interest to see if any particular position comes under pressure... and if any clear challenge emerges to replace one of the preferrred XI... but in terms of balance that will leave us with the following provisional side:

Compton
Newman
Joyce
Yardy
<middle order batsman)
Dalrymple
Foster
Rashid
<Seamer 1>
<Seamer 2>
<Seamer 3>

This would seem to me to be the balance sought by virtually all our contributers: if you check the original nominations you will find overwhelming support for a side with this balance.

Please note: you were the ONLY contributer who thought Dalrymple should play as a spinner (at 8) rather than as a batsman (at 6). Please also note that support for Clarke at 6 was limited to yourself, Ernest, and Colyisamackem: he only got as far as the shortlist because of two others wanting him to bat at 5!