OK, 35+ is a tad harsh but a keeper needs to average 30+. In today's test cricket an average of 27-28 isn't very good.

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Mark.

Yeah, 30+ and a very reliable catcher is a must at test level these days, with runs being scored far more heavily..

McCullum - 31.42
Dhoni - 33.76
Akmal - 31.86
Boucher - 30.05

This is sort of the range we have in todays best WKeepers, and even less to an extent (Ramdin/Rahim)

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Hoggy Hoggy Hoggy...OI OI OI!!!

Well, I'm happy to pick the stronger batsman if he isn't the best 'keeper, as long as he isn't that far behind the best 'keeper. So I'd pick Dhoni over Karthik quite happily, but not Prior over Mustard. Saying that, I think Mustard does have potential with the bat, and even though his County record isn't fantastic it doesn't mean that he can't rise to the occasion in Tests. Look at how much better Marcus Trescothick's Test record is than his overall first-class record.

Let's say "have the potential to be a good bat" rather than "be a good bat": early in his international career, Flintoff was a poor batsman and and no more than an occasional bowler... but leaving him out of our 'A' side would have been nonsensical - he clearly had the makings of a no 6/7 bat who could also be (at the very least) a significant component of a 5 man attack.

Bopara has enough potential with the bat to be considered... but gets the nod ahead of others because he also has potential with the ball and (perhaps more importantly) offers an awful lot in the field. Broad has enough potential with the ball but is one of the definite picks because he's quite clearly a potential (long term) no 7 (or better) batsman.

Rashid should, to my mind, walk into the side on exactly the same basis: he's already a better batsman than Flintoff was when the latter started his Test career... and he's already a far, far better bowler than Flintoff was even well INTO his Test career.
Any top gloveman can be turned into a decent enough Test batsman. Glovemen HAVE to have that knack of watching the ball right into the hand.... and watching the ball onto the bat is no different. Developing a technique to exploit that strenth might lead to idiosyncracy (which is why so many wicket-keepers are described as "crabby" batsmen... but any good coach should be able to get a Test average of approaching 20-30 from pretty much ANY superb gloveman.

It's easier to coach batting than glovework!
It's not any selector's job to worry about whether someone is ready: if they have come into the reckoning through their performances then it's up to the selectors to take a deep breath and keep their fingers crossed.

For any selector (and any level) to pre-judge how someone would take to the pressure and intensity would be grossly out of order: if a player earns a chance then they should get it... and then they at least have the opportunity to show what they CAN do.

I'm not sure about his potential with the ball. He has no penetration and is leaking runs for fun now. At the moment Mahmood is looking a far better bowler than Broad.

Can they. Read, Ambrose......


Why not, its what made Fletcher one of the greatest coaches we have had and why Moores is a joke.

It was obvious from the outset that Ramps was mentally fragile despite his talent and that Colly was mentally tough despite having only 1/100th of the talent that Ramps had. Thats why one averages about 40 and one about 25. The likes of Colly, Vaughan, Tres, Strauss, Flintoff, S.Jones and Giles would never have got picked on CC performances alone. They had that bit extra that enabled them to succeed at test cricket and be a major part of a successful England team.

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Mark.

I think he has enough potential. He just needs more pace! I saw that he's averaging 82 mph this innings, when that average should be at least 4 or 5 miles quicker. Either that, or learn to swing it sideways, because at that pace with that level of movement (ie. not much) the batsmen simply have to bide their time until he bowls it too straight or too wide and put him away without any risk.

Still, Anderson's turning the corner after 5 years at the top, and Broad's what, 22? So he can turn it around.

Rachael: Your post sounds like you are saying the WAT XI is a squad, because players from such a squad could be added to the England side if the need was there.

1) pie_chuckers squad compromise was intended to include between 13 - 15 players, not just XI - and that's what the majority of selectors voted for.

2) Please make it plain, what you mean - Are you an favour of us voting for a 'pool' of players 13-15 strong or not?.

Rachael the balance of any side matters, as does whether a players is "ready" or not. If you want proof - look how Moores has upset the balance of the current England side with the inclusion oh an "unready" Pattinson.

Anyway that's a matter of argument "spurious" or otherwise.
Again I ask if you are agreeing with pie_chuckers idea of a 13 -15 man squad or not?, we are entitled to know your views on this now.

Also I think pie_chuckers poll should be closed, the selection procedure is months overdue, and to allow more votes at this juncture is just wrong.

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Ern

I agree, Poll now closed.

To move this on can we agree soon weather we are going for a squad or not. The vote was in favour of a squad (just). I still think it would be nice to get this resolved by the middle of the week, after all in a couple of months we will be looking at selecting the 2008 team!

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Mark.

OK... it's not my preference but can we therefore wrap this up with something based on the the following XIV:

Horton
Denly
Shah
Hildreth
Bopara
Carberry
Rashid
Foster / Ambrose
Mustard / Ambrose
Swann
Broad
Tremlett
Onions?
Bresnan

On a quick review of the threads I don't spot any other names to include.... but please let me know if any obvious name is missing.

Not my preference either Rachael, but I support the squad you have posted - not sure about a third spinner, but would accept that if picked.

I think this is the best compromise we can expect given the diversity of views.

I think Rachael you might wish to start a thread to see if we keep the squad system, or revert back to choosing XI players, when this squad is finalised which I hope is soon.

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Ern