Ernest has repeatedly railed against off-spinners: in assorted posts he has dismissed players of 'that type' and suggested batsmen have in some manner 'cracked' off-spin. His latest target is Dalrymple: dismissed not for being no good (which may or may not be true but is incidental) but because he turns the ball in to right handed batsmen.

First question: is there a big future for off-spinners against right-handed batsmen.

Now... we all know that international cricket is awash with left handed batsmen. I believe the WI put out a top 7 with just one right-hander in the line-up in recent years.

Second question: is there a big future for off-spinners against left-handed batsmen.

I've also a third question, which relates to the merits of comparing left arm over and right arm over bowling.

Third question: Is there any difference between a right-handed batsman facing a SLA orthodox bowler and a left-handed batsman facing an off-spinner?

Note: I'm thinking 'yes' but only because rough is mostly created by right-arm over seamers bowling over the wicket - if your side had a left-arm-over seamer I'd see no obvious difference.

pps. Ern's views can be seen in the following posts:
http://world-a-team.com/showthread.p...9285#post99285
http://world-a-team.com/showthread.p...277#post103277

I think before Rachael's 3 questions are answered it's worth pointing out that in recent years only Giles a SLA has kept his place in the England team, and I think it fair comment to say that it was Giles that kept another SLA and former WAT A Team player Keedy out of the England side.

In this same period England tried Batty and Dawson to my knowledge, and both failed at International level, and I just found Udal from Rachaels link

Also the only spinner of note to come through has been Panesar, yes another SLA spinner.

See above.

IMO no - because they are bowling away from a left hander, and don't spin the ball as much as a leggie, so is confines to bowling into the rough outside the leg off stump (to a left hander) - all a left hander has to do is leave the ball alone.

A leggie on the other hand can bowl the ball sharply into the batsmen out of the rough, a much tougher delivery to deal with that an off spinners stock delivery on a right handers off stump, Oh and an an off spinner trying to spin the ball from off to leg against a left hander IMO will get carted, because not enough turn will be generated on the ball.
IMO a SLA bowler has more options, like Giles in India bowling down the leg side, not popular but effective, also a good SLA is effective bowling round the wicket when the wicket is turning.

Yes but when England played the West Indies - I think pace would have been the order of the day, when Australia played the West Indies - they had pace + Warne.

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Ern

Any spinner will struggle if all they do is turn the ball with no element of flight or loop etc. Likewise, if a bowler and beat a batsman in the flight, it only needs a small amount of turn for an edge, bat pad, stumping, clean bowled as the bat will be in the wrong place. The problem with a lot of off spinners over here is that they just fire it in flat so batsmen can see where its going and its too quick to turn much. As soon as offspinners (or anyone else) can start to get a loop and drift the ball they become difficult to play.
In response to the particular questions, right handers can be threatened by a ball turning in if they dont pick up the flight as with any bowler (Vaughan to Tendulkar), and also with bat pad catches. Off spin is often less dramatic but the subtle variations can be equally effective with arm balls and drift. The ability of the bowler is the main factor not just which way they tund the ball.
Left handers would be as vulnerable to a good offie as righthanders are to legspin. Many off spinners can turn the ball a substantial distance and, as before, equipped with the flight and guile as well would be as effective as any other bowler.
I'd say no on the 3rd point because for the most part you'd expect the bowler to be operating around the wicket so in both cases the rough would be too wide too cause a problem. Bowling to rough outside leg is unlikely to get wickets and if its a case of shutting the game down, all art involved in spin bowling will be dispensed with in favour of darts.

Absolutely not, you just need to be good at it. Take, for example, the doosra or straight-on deliveries. If these deliveries are part of what makes a good leg spinner, substituting the variations of a googly and slider in this case, then off spinners can be very dangerous. Think of a leg spinner against a left hander for a very similar case.

Also, if one is not a big turner of the ball, as for example is Dalrymple, then line and length and flight become very important. If developed and utilised well, as with any skill, then off spin can be a potent weapon through drawing mistakes or creating a lot of pressure. To say it is dead as an art is very, very wide of the mark as far as I am concerned.

Quite. The scope for guile is just as great no matter how one bowls.... and if one lands the ball in the right areas and combines that with some disguise then it really doesn't matter HOW one bowls!

On a seperate note... I do find the popular obsession with 'turn' quite depressing: we've had folk on this board before trying to explain that dip, rather than turn, is what leads to mistakes from top batsmen... but some folk just don't seem to grasp that PLAYING spin is merely about grasping the relationship between where a ball pitches and where the stumps stand.

To listen to some folk you'd think turning the ball square, from the right spot, is the be all and end all of slow bowling... but if the batsman can anticipate where the ball is going to land it's pretty straightforward to either get to the pitch and negate the spin or play back and dab the ball off the stumps.

Extreme turn, like extreme pace, clearly freaks poor batsmen (especially tailenders) but if getting through the very best top order batting is the aim.... neither strike me as critical!

99% of offspinners are not good enough for test cricket, Muralitharan & Singh. Im a left hander and a leg arm off spinner i gold to face no big turning balls, ball spinning into the pads. Right arm offspinners are good to face because they dont turn the ball a long way so its easy to smother the spin. Left arm leg spinners a horrible to face being a left hander because of the obvious reasons and never really facing many.

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Bill Ponsford - The only one who could play in Bradman’s company and make it a duet.

Guys we are talking about English off spinners, who do we know that can put a good loop on the ball?., even the art of "Donkey Droppers" is dead.

Lets look at recent England spinners.

Udal - well not world class.

Dawson - the same, he had his chance.

Batty - he was also tried, was not effective.

Croft - possibly the best of the recent crop of England/Welsh off spinners.

Hemmings - amiable blike - hardly set the world alight.

Embury was Englands modern time best - and even he on his comeback was a flop.

Flat Jack Simmonds, he was an off spinner who was effective, but by bowling flat, hard to get away and was probably Englands best one day off spinner, but hardly a devastating off spinner.


Miller about as effective as the selector

Willey - a good bat wasted at 7, because it was believe he was a genuine off spinner.Even Laker - how would he have fared today, he bowled on uncovered wickets.Now SLA bowlers.

Underwood - as good as any SLA ever

Tuffers - a great at his best

Edmunds - could get as much turn as Warne

keedy - never given a chance to shine, but better than any England off spinner IMO

Giles - at least he could bowl without getting carted.

Panesar - best prospect since Underwood, England will never need an off spin bowler if he comes off.

So look at the comparisons, which were, and are the best.

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Ern

I disagree - you've missed out Peter Such! He would have had a pretty decent England career if he could have batted or fielded. Also, a prime example of the guile of flight which Rachael spoke about. Not the biggest turner of the ball, he earned wickets by subtle variations of flight and length rather than prodigious turn.

But you look at his figures - he was a pretty decent success compared to many English spinners. 6/67 and 5/81 against the Aussies. In fact, 27 of 37 wickets were taken against the Aussies and he was only given the chance to play against Australia and New Zealand. His average of 33 would have been much better given the chance to bowl against Zimbabwe or Bangladesh.

If the Aussies of 1998/99 - Steve Waugh, Darren Lehmann, Ian Healy, Shane Warne etc were dismissed by Such, then there's sure to be a space in the modern game for such bowlers. If I recall correctly, that ball that bowled Steve Waugh at Sydney was pretty special - especially considering that it was Steve Waugh.

And also, let us not forget that Leg Spin was apparently dead before a certain S.K.Warne came along.

I remembered Peter Such later and was going to edit him in, however he only took 37 wickets in 11 matches, at an average of 33.56 not bad for a spinner, however his strike rate was highish at 84.43 - but I myself would have given him more that 11 matches, he was the best at the time of his selection, he really was a tidy bowler.
You are right about leg spin - in England a leg spinner has always been used to buy wickets, because we can't produce them - look at Salisbury and Schofield, hardly of Warne's class.
But Andy look at the posts above - we here talk of loop and flight, and guile, we don't have bowlers of that quality in England.
Mentioning Warne and Murali is really off topic, because they are not English - also Murali is not an off spin bowler as we know them, he bowls more deliveries that leaves the bat to take wickets, that give even more credence to my argument IMO.

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Ern

You're right Ern. The last time I checked, Salisbury and Schofield did not belong to Shane Warne.

Hmmmm, what is quite interesting is how England has started to spin a little over the past few years, Warne took loads of wickets in last year's Ashes series, Murali profited this year and so has Panesar. Maybe Monty can encourage not only other Sikhs, but also finger spinners to step up and want to take wickets for England.

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Whatever your difficulties in mathematics, I can assure you mine are far greater!
Albert Einstein, 1879-1955