OK folks: time to vote on two players who I'd personally consider automatic selections for this year's WAT 'A' side: Ravi Bopara (basically a promising middle order batsman but capable of turning his arm over in the manner of Ian Bell) and Adil Rashid (a player who broke into the Yorkshire side as a specialist batsman, who held his own as a batsman throughout the season, but also a heavily used legspinner who has bagged a stack of wickets this season).

Both are seemingly destined for a Test run sooner rather than later: Bopara has played ODIs and is due to tour this winter (though is not expected to start unless injuries rule out first choice players); Rashid is was the Cricket Writers' Club 2007 Young Cricketer of the Year, won the Young Player of the Year at the Professional Cricketers' Association Awards 2007 and whilst in India for a month-long training camp based in Mumbai and Chennai is also on call in the event of any injury to Swann or Panesar.

I don't see that the two are contesting the same spot: one is a specialist batsman who has somehow entered the public consciousness as something more than that despite being a very occasional bowler (with a record that compares unfavourably with Bell let alone with Collingwood); the other is just about capable of holding down a place in the Yorkshire side as either a batsman OR a bowler - and offers that "something different" with the ball that all sides seek.

The presence of one or both of these players has implications for selecting other middle order batsmen (and may influence the choice of wicket-keeper given Ambrose's obvious potential as a No 6 bat and the tendency to see Foster as a No 7) - so I'm proposing we get this matter dealt with first.

I've no time to get a post together on Bopara right now... but what follows was my summary of Rashid's claim as made in another thread...

Adil Rashid has been one of the outstanding success stories of 2007: the PCA ratings make him the 7th most valuable player in this year's County Championship!First look at how his batting shaped up against that of his illustrious (mostly Test playing) Yorkshire colleagues:Rashid held his own in comparison with Younis Khan... one of the most successful Test batsmen in the world (with a Test average of 48.98).

Now look at his bowling return for the season:Note first that despite his youth and inexperience... he's been their senior bowler this season: the 40 wickets is awesome... but check out just how much Yorkshire relied on this youngster: 412.2 overs in 15 matches means he was trusted throughout and never really protected.

Compare Rashid's season with those of a couple of other leg-spinners... including the newly resurgent Schofield, whose "Excellent domestic performances in the 2007 season saw him called up for the England Performance Programme in the winter of 2007-08" and who "was rewarded for his success in 2007 with a new two-year contract at Surrey"...Sure... Warne obviously came out better... but considering the comparison is with the greatest exponent of legspin that the world has ever seen... Rashid's figures stand up to comparison (especially as his home wickets were in Yorkshire... hardly known for being receptive to legspin, especially in this of all seasons).

I have voted other because IMO Rashid is not the right man for the side (yet).

Bopara on the other hand has had valuable experience, so get in the side on merit, where Rashid is very much still on a learning curve - and has been overprotected IMO by Yorkshire.

Yes Yorkshire do overprotect him, their policy has been to keep him away from interviews, so IMO that means they are not sure he is ready mentaly.

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Ern

Well I've voted for both as even though Bopara (who as a friend of mine so succinctly puts it "he's just like Collingwood only he's actually got some talent") is someway ahead of him in terms of being nearer to the finished product the dearth of quality young spinners means Rashid simply has to be fast-tracked. He's suffered the inevitable second season comedown with the ball but if you factor in the divisional gulf in standard his bowling stats for the season are pretty well on a par with the only other serious contender for the spinner berth Swann (something that's amply demonstrated by Swann's 2006/2007 bowling stats) which given the superior batting and long term potential leaves him the only real option IMHO for the sides sole spinner. Provided the side has a vaguely competent tail I also would have no problem with him batting at 6 although one assumes people will have the good sense to select Ambrose and that won't be an issue.

I agree.

Anyone NOT backing Rashid might want to suggest an alternative batting all-rounder (or find some evidence from somewhere that Bopara has potential to be a genuine 5th bowler in Test cricket)... and might want to indicate who they would pick as the side's spinner if Swann were not eligible.

I'd also be interested in analysis of where the PCA Most Vakuable Player ratings might be going wrong seeing as they place him so highly!

Rashid shouldn't be in the side,we don't need 2 spinners and Swann is obviously the best candidate for that.Rashid didn't bat in the top 6 last season so can't be considered as a batsman anymore than Tim Bresnan could who incidently scored more centuries than Rashid.

Bopara is a certainty in my eyes but i can't see why Rachael continues the obsession with Rashid when the majority of people agree that he would be lucky to make the side.Also remember i am one of Rashid's biggest fans and an extremely biased Yorkshire fan and if i am able to concede he isn't worth a place this year then he probably isn't this time round.

First things first: the frontrunner for the wicket-keeper spot (though not my preference) is Ambrose... and by common consent he's a genuine top order bat. If he plays then the no 6 spot is spoken for (and with the likes of Swann and Broad at 8 and 9, the batting depth is huge) - no one should seriously doubt Rashid's ability to bat at 7 in ANY side: he's no Ponting or Jayawardene... but he's handy enough given that (unlike Bopara) he's also a handy 5th bowler.

That brings me to the second matter: I'm not suggesting that Rashid should be considered as the next best spin option after Panesar and Swann: if he were unable to bat he'd NOT be the next best spin option. That said... a 5th bowler (and second spinner) doesn't have the same role as a a first spinner and frontline bowler - and no captain should turn his nose up at the option of trying to get a wicket with a reliable (if, as they often are, expensive) leg-spinner.

First what I know of Rashid is that he will come of age when Yorkshire let him, it has been of late the policy of Yorkshire to shield Rashid from press interviews.

This alone says that if Yorkshire don't believe he is mentaly up to the big time yet, then who are we to ague.

Second Rashid when he is picked should be picked for his bowling, in yoor post to date Rachael you have shown shades of Fletcher.

Read kept out of the England side by G O Jones supposed better batting.

keedy kept out the the England side by Giles supposed better batting.

Just to name a couple.

We have Swann who is capable of taking the spinner role, and Bopara deserves his chance after his experience under pressure in OZ - that leaves no room for Rashid (this year), he will force his way into the side when he gets more experience - and exposure.

In fact we know very little about Rashid, don't rely on raw stats - temperment also counts, as does mental toughness.

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Ern

Ern I'm not sure how Yorkshire having the good sense not to lumber Rashid with pointless media commitments and let him concentrate purely on his cricket is a damning inditement of his temperament. When Wayne Rooney first burst onto the scene Everton (and David Moyes in particular) adopted an identical approach in protecting their talented youngster from the media and it had absolutely no effect on his effortless step up to the big time. Having the ability to innanely spout the usual "good areas", "I'm not going to get carried away", "I've got to keep my focus" e.t.c, drivel is hardly a sign of mental strength.