Zimbabwean ICC Status

[butchering lee]

nice response

Originally Posted by Prince EWS

Just decide to make up an average for Matsikenyeri? He averages 23.40.
Even though they may seem decent for a Zimbabwean, he isnt an opener IMO. The fact that he averages just 19.58 when opening, with only one fifty (against Bangladesh!!) backs up my point. He isnt as good as Grant Flower, and never will be - not as an opener, anyway.

you are right - i misread the 3 as an 8 - too much of a hurry to prove my point maybe. but it's one thing to make a mistake and quite another to state facts about the future.

since 2001 WI series grant's ave'd 22 and if you take out his only decent series... against pak... in that time, he ave's 17 (or there abouts) - slightly less than matsikenyeri, who hasn't played pak. one can argue anything with numbers - my arguement is that he's gone. how much worse are the new guys really!? maybe a lot but where would we have turned when flower was finished (which i believe he is)?

of all those besides his brother and goodwin - i'd have said he was the best and i think he looked better than his ave.

You seem to just throw averages in off the top of your head to suit your aguement.
Taylor averages 24.81.

"seem" is the operative word . i just know i got to ebrahim (ave23.66) and thought it's not necessary to keep going down - don't know how i missed it. bit harsh on taylor's 24 ave - sorry ...again. fine he's as good an option as any - which is kinda my point.

As for Marillier, I think he is the most over-exaggerated player to ever play for Zimbabwe. He played a total of five test matches, two against Bangladesh. He never opened the batting either - he even failed as an opener in ODI cricket, so I dont see why you want him opening in tests.

ODIs are not relevant (friend had some good hits up the order in ODIs - even against aus i think, and...) , but bangladesh certainly are - they're a test side regardless. i don't know how many tests taylor's played but ervine (imagine what his ave would be like without BD ), chigumbura (mo BD? ..aargh - him too!) amounst others being talked about only played about 6 matches and we judge them - and they played bangladesh too, as did flower etc.

i have never actually seen marrilier play and was putting him there as a "get over flower" suggestion. he's obviously not the best allrounder in zim (despite his test record showing he is - - after 5 tests)! i see no reason why he doesn't get an extended run while others do - why taylor when there's gripper, rodgers, ferrierra?

If you remove his games against Bangladesh, he averages 15.25

so slightly less than grant's ave's against Eng and Oz (around 17??) but a lot better than his 11 ave against SA or 7.75 against WI (ave's are horrible when you get into them) ... in fact take subcontinental teams away from grant's ave's (leave SL on if you like) and...?


Whether you believe his heart was in it or not, he still averaged in the mid 40s in test cricket.
My point is, if Zim could produce players like this in the past, they can do so again.

agreed. tho' my point was he's gone, who else is there?

If it were not for the politics and administration problems in Zimbabwe, he would still be playing test cricket.

was zim politics ever what we could call "just"? and his actions were politically motivated - a choice he lives with - 'nuff respect to him.

in terms of cricket - bygones!

Carlisle is a class act. To leave him out for an inconsistant player like Friend, who never really worked too hard on his batting, is exactly the reason he averages in the high 20s

didn't they move him cos he couldn't make any spot his own - aren't we falling into a trap here of blaming management for EVERYTHING. i have absolutely no objection to keeping him in. my arguement revolves around the fact that zim never performed and i feel just as inclined to go for , try another, masakadza as i do for, say, wishart, chigumbura, carlisle. friend...it seems hardly to matter. i watched vermeulan against WI and thought that he had all the shots, the temperament, the desire,...where is he now and his absence is hardly noticable.

he (friend) plays regularly for derby now and he never bowls...they have some confidence in his batting and if he has a decent ave without working on his batting..isn't that better proof of my point? so his best score is against BD - gripper got 0 (does that make him awful?) same match. in his last 8 inn. 4 are above 40.

thing is, i think we've seen the last of him, too!


I dont care who's older. Price showed, right before the rebel issue, that he was really learning as a test bowler. He was starting to become a real threat. He worried the Australians in Sydney and then troubled West Indies as well.

well, if your point is that zim has produced some good cricketers - i think for this particular spot you are right. both strang and price were good and huckle seemed certainly to have the makings.

The last bowling spot doesnt worry me too much. It could go to a host of guys.

those new ave's are not thoroughly checked and your original team was fine - i simply have no idea any more. maybe carlisle is as good a player as you think he is (not, imo, "a class act") - i certainly hope he does well every time he goes on the field for zim and i've enjoyed watching him till now so...

maybe i sound far too disparaging - my intention is not to have a dig at the old timers...as i've said before, they actually competed on occasion. but they had to start somewhere and i bet it was a better starting point than the current lot are experiencing.

[Prince EWS]

didn't they move him cos he couldn't make any spot his own - aren't we falling into a trap here of blaming management for EVERYTHING.

Nope, they moved him because they had a preconceved idea that he moving him around constantly wouldnt affect his performances. They would move him regardless of whether he did well in a spot or not.

since 2001 WI series grant's ave'd 22 and if you take out his only decent series... against pak

Taking out games against Bangladesh is one thing, but you cant just take out matches because you feel like it. If you take out all a batsman's decent series, they will have a poor average, no matter who they are.


Basically, I wasnt putting in a "this is the side I would select given the chance" suggestion. I just used that side to make a point - and that is, that without government and ZC intervention, Zimbabwe would have a competitive test side. And for that reason, they should be persisted with. If they have produced quality players before, they will do it again.

[stone bird]

don't have time for a proper reply

carlisle made the first drop position his and then he opened against sri lanka since no one wanted to open. his technique is not great but he should be averaging 35...i put it down to him not having a set position.

travis friend has made a number of decent test scores, sri lanka, india bangs and england...he is by no means a batsmen just yet...relies too heavily on pitch up balls he can drive and he plays too many cross batter shots.


marrillier deserved a longer run!

[The Phantom Ram]

Originally Posted by The Phantom Ram

I am a Derbyshire fan and as far as I understand we aren't turning Friend into a batsman he just hasn't been fit enough to bowl.

Some more info on Travis Friend.

Firstly he has not bowled a ball for Derbyshire all season.

He has played 15 games for us this season (3 first class games, 8 45 over games and 4 in the Twenty20) so he has in no way been a regular. In the County championship he has scored 120 runs in 6 innings with a high score of 82 and in 8 Sunday League innings (inc 1 not out) he has scored 139 runs (average of 19.85) with a high score of 52. This form at county level does not indicate a potential test batsman to me.

[butchering lee]

Originally Posted by The Phantom Ram

Some more info on Travis Friend.

Firstly he has not bowled a ball for Derbyshire all season.

He has played 15 games for us this season (3 first class games, 8 45 over games and 4 in the Twenty20) so he has in no way been a regular. In the County championship he has scored 120 runs in 6 innings with a high score of 82 and in 8 Sunday League innings (inc 1 not out) he has scored 139 runs (average of 19.85) with a high score of 52. This form at county level does not indicate a potential test batsman to me.

i know he he hasn't bowled which interested me as to: why, if they knew he wasn't going to bowl, did they consider playing him at all - if he has no batting potential?) - match practice?

he has certainly been regular since coming back from injury.

a potential test batsman in eng is a little different to a test batsman in zim however. his test record , as far as zimbos go, is not bad considering you can't put it all down to BD.

[butchering lee]

Originally Posted by stone bird

carlisle made the first drop position his and then he opened against sri lanka since no one wanted to open. his technique is not great but he should be averaging 35...i put it down to him not having a set position.


marrillier deserved a longer run!

1st point - i quite understand. i thought if eng had placed confidence in hick instead of the start - stop career they gave him , he would have turned out ok.
but the thing is we'll both never know, nor will everyone agree with this point of view.
you could both very well be right!!

2nd point - why not indeed!?

[butchering lee]

Originally Posted by Prince EWS

Nope, they moved him because they had a preconceved idea that he moving him around constantly wouldnt affect his performances. They would move him regardless of whether he did well in a spot or not..

ok - you may have more inside info into that than i do.
i do wonder why he can choose which games to play in but not choose his position in the side ?

Originally Posted by Prince EWS

Taking out games against Bangladesh is one thing, but you cant just take out matches because you feel like it. If you take out all a batsman's decent series, they will have a poor average, no matter who they are..

not really (i only took out one good series - as you did), the reason being - subcontinent teams have always been zims closest rivals - true we still usually lost but we won a series against pak and ran them close a few other times. now you´re taking BD ave's out of his ave when BD were not only competing with us but beating us.

ok i know it was a batsmens series but you might as well start taking the BD ave's out of taylor's ave (turns out to be a less than 20 ave, if i'm not mistaken!).

Originally Posted by Prince EWS

Basically, I wasnt putting in a "this is the side I would select given the chance" suggestion. I just used that side to make a point - and that is, that without government and ZC intervention, Zimbabwe would have a competitive test side. And for that reason, they should be persisted with. If they have produced quality players before, they will do it again.

i know and i not only agree but ended up arguing for the sake of it

[Teatime FatCat]

Ok guys, as an outsider looking in, I've seen so many good Zim players disappear without necessarily knowing the reason why. Can you help me with the following players and my thoughts -

G Flower (has he retired, or has he refused to come back?)
A Huckle (where is he?)
B Murphy (where is he?)
D Marillier (I thought he'd retired?)
M Mbwanga (Why did he retire?)
B Strang (what happened to him?)
S Ervine (is he re-qualifying elsewhere?)
T Gripper (where is he?)
T Freind (is he re-qualifying?)
D Hondo (where is he?)
The Whittals (were they ever good enough, or are they too old now?)
R Price (has he retired, or has he refused to come back?)

[stone bird]

G.Flower - refused to return..is playing for essex

A.Huckle - quit cricket years ago to concentrate on farming

Murphy - in south africa i think...he has retired

marrilier - played club cricket in england, back in zim

Mbwanga - retired so he could commentate

b.strang - made a return to zim cricket and made himself available...should be in the team

ervine playing in both eng and australia...does not know where to qualify

gripper - back in zim...cannot make the team

friend - playing for derbs...trying to become a pilot

hondo - injured

whittalls - guy is retired, due to injuries lives on a farm in zim, andy is a solicitor i think in the UK

price - plays county cricket...resfused to come back

[butchering lee]

this is for those in the know.

i started my discussion with the "Prince" on the theory that even if we produce great players (and i know we can) - the chances of them staying are remote at best - especially if the have an 'abroad' option.

so, with the assumption that management will not improve but will be tolerated we come to the question of selectors. i believe the selectors were begining to give people longer runs. Unfortunate that the two they chose for this - ebrahim and matsikenyeri, like campbell before them - did not repay thier confidence. still...they did gradually seem to improve with exposure.

so, if you were a selector and had to begin now with the talent in zim - who would you give a run. i know we've seen lists of teams before but i want you to leave out flowers, goodwin, murphy, friend, ervine...anyone who is not on the cards to return. the 4 not on the list of 27 can be included. what can we now hope for (just 11 - i'll underline who'd have my confidence for a run. )?

1-taylor
2-rogers/gripper
3-ferreira/wishart
4-marrillier/ebrahim/masakadza
5-carlisle
6-chigumbura
7-taibu
8-streak
9-blignaut
10-ewing/cremer/utseya
11-Irland/hondo/strang/mupawira/panyangara

??????????